Two women returning from a pub in Gurgaon at midnight were raped in moving car. It is really disgusting but it is surprising how the women returning from pub could assume that they were safe even at midnight. They identified one offender as one who danced in the pub.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/India-news/Gurgaon/Gurgaon-Two-women-raped-for-over-two-hours-in-moving-cab/Article1-1083404.aspx

Certainly they invited the trouble Perhaps they thought that they are living in Ram Rajya.

In Ram rajya women would not go to pubs. This could be in Ravana's Lanka. :unsure: :unsure:

Ravana's Lanka, an apt comparison.

I don't think even Ravana would have allowed this kind of behavior in his kingdom. He was a damon but not a rapist.

Yes, Ravana was not a rapist, but a kidnapper.

I had just remarked that women would not be allowed to go to pubs in Ram Rajya. They could do so in Ravana's Lanka. Rape is forced sex and this would be permitted neither in Rama rajya nor Ravan rajya. In Ram rajya, there could be no extramarital sex but this would be allowed in Ravan Rajya. Eat, drink and make merry- this was the norm in Rakshas Raj. Acharya
chatur Sen Shastri has well explained in 'Vayam Rakshama' that the Rakshas believed in merry making. .However, Ramayana is an epic and we cannot say anything authoritatively.

We cannot say anything about authoritatively about Ramayana, because it’s an epic. We cannot say anything about the existence of pubs in Rama Rajya or the restrictions imposed on women against visiting Pubs. Similarly, we cannot say anything authoritatively that in Ravana rajya women were allowed to visit Pubs and allowed extramarital relations, because nothing was mentioned about them and other social life in Ramayana, at least in the version of Ramayana available in this state.
In Bhagavata Purana, Mahabali was described as a benevolent Asura. There are no merry making sessions in Mahabali’s Rajya.
But we can say authoritatively that Ravana kidnapped Sita because, that’s the central theme of all innumerable Ramayanas available in this country.

If we bring Ramayana in this discussion as solution then we should begin from the beginning- Surpankha went out to have fun and the whole episode took place. Ravana wanted to die for Moksha with blessings of Rama therefore he kidnapped Sita. If he wanted to seduce her, he could have done it easily but it was not his aim.
Here the emphasis should be on Suparnkha and not on Ravana because in this case if merrymaking is the theme it was Suparnkha who started the party.

Merry making is not the theme. We were discussing about the living conditions in Rama rajya and the Ravana rajya in which merrymaking is just one of the points.

Actually the theme was rape of two women after they were returning from Pub. There was remark that those women thought that this is Ram Rajya and so they would not be raped. Then the issue emerged that no woman would go to pub in Ram Rajya. Then this turned to Ravana Raj where such pleasure could be derived. Actually Ram Rajya is not the main issue. The issue is whether women can take the liberty of being in pub till mid night and thereafter get in some car and expect they would not be raped. In fact, women should consider the ground reality and not invite rape as they did. But they have the liberty to invite rape for which they should thank themselves.

@Gulshanji

I can understand what prompted you to float this thread. The point which is compelling me to reply to your question involves both the legality as well as pragmatism behind a woman's decision to return late from a pub and risking herself to all kinds of undesirable consequences. If one goes through the provisions of our Constitution what is wrong if a woman does so on the test of equality ? We may question her wisdom of behaving in that particular fashion taking into account Indian realities but if anyone has failed it is that agency which is entrusted with the duty of enforcing each and every intention and will of the Indian Constitution. I fail to see any inappropriateness in her conduct if the same is enjoyed by any male!!!!

Sir,

I do not question right of the woman to go to pub at mid night but one must be security conscious. If I go to a notorious lonely place at odd hours with lot of money, is this not invitation to robbery. There is no use of complaining about police inefficiency if I am myself so careless and so daring.

This is all about temptations, we all know are irresistible for some even knowing consequences fully well. Some of us cannot think properly but go for immediate pleasure. And this is true for both men and women universally.

Two women returning from a pub in Gurgaon at midnight were raped in moving car. It is really disgusting but it is surprising how the women returning from pub could assume that they were safe even at midnight. They identified one offender as one who danced in the pub.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/India-news/Gurgaon/Gurgaon-Two-women-raped-for-over-two-hours-in-moving-cab/Article1-1083404.aspx

Certainly they invited the trouble Perhaps they thought that they are living in Ram Rajya.

In Ram rajya women would not go to pubs. This could be in Ravana's Lanka. :unsure: :unsure:

Ravana's Lanka, an apt comparison.

I don't think even Ravana would have allowed this kind of behavior in his kingdom. He was a damon but not a rapist.

Yes, Ravana was not a rapist, but a kidnapper.

I had just remarked that women would not be allowed to go to pubs in Ram Rajya. They could do so in Ravana's Lanka. Rape is forced sex and this would be permitted neither in Rama rajya nor Ravan rajya. In Ram rajya, there could be no extramarital sex but this would be allowed in Ravan Rajya. Eat, drink and make merry- this was the norm in Rakshas Raj. Acharya
chatur Sen Shastri has well explained in 'Vayam Rakshama' that the Rakshas believed in merry making. .However, Ramayana is an epic and we cannot say anything authoritatively.

We cannot say anything about authoritatively about Ramayana, because it’s an epic. We cannot say anything about the existence of pubs in Rama Rajya or the restrictions imposed on women against visiting Pubs. Similarly, we cannot say anything authoritatively that in Ravana rajya women were allowed to visit Pubs and allowed extramarital relations, because nothing was mentioned about them and other social life in Ramayana, at least in the version of Ramayana available in this state.
In Bhagavata Purana, Mahabali was described as a benevolent Asura. There are no merry making sessions in Mahabali’s Rajya.
But we can say authoritatively that Ravana kidnapped Sita because, that’s the central theme of all innumerable Ramayanas available in this country.

If we bring Ramayana in this discussion as solution then we should begin from the beginning- Surpankha went out to have fun and the whole episode took place. Ravana wanted to die for Moksha with blessings of Rama therefore he kidnapped Sita. If he wanted to seduce her, he could have done it easily but it was not his aim.
Here the emphasis should be on Suparnkha and not on Ravana because in this case if merrymaking is the theme it was Suparnkha who started the party.

Merry making is not the theme. We were discussing about the living conditions in Rama rajya and the Ravana rajya in which merrymaking is just one of the points.

Actually the theme was rape of two women after they were returning from Pub. There was remark that those women thought that this is Ram Rajya and so they would not be raped. Then the issue emerged that no woman would go to pub in Ram Rajya. Then this turned to Ravana Raj where such pleasure could be derived. Actually Ram Rajya is not the main issue. The issue is whether women can take the liberty of being in pub till mid night and thereafter get in some car and expect they would not be raped. In fact, women should consider the ground reality and not invite rape as they did. But they have the liberty to invite rape for which they should thank themselves.

@Gulshanji

I can understand what prompted you to float this thread. The point which is compelling me to reply to your question involves both the legality as well as pragmatism behind a woman's decision to return late from a pub and risking herself to all kinds of undesirable consequences. If one goes through the provisions of our Constitution what is wrong if a woman does so on the test of equality ? We may question her wisdom of behaving in that particular fashion taking into account Indian realities but if anyone has failed it is that agency which is entrusted with the duty of enforcing each and every intention and will of the Indian Constitution. I fail to see any inappropriateness in her conduct if the same is enjoyed by any male!!!!

Sir,

I do not question right of the woman to go to pub at mid night but one must be security conscious. If I go to a notorious lonely place at odd hours with lot of money, is this not invitation to robbery. There is no use of complaining about police inefficiency if I am myself so careless and so daring.

But are we not taking the decision in regard to safety for them ourselves? Statistically speaking how many such rape cases are there? More women have been victims of rapes in recent times who never have had in their wildest imagination and intention of becoming willing victims. Women with deviant desires and perverse intentions are better clubbed as exceptional cases.

Two women returning from a pub in Gurgaon at midnight were raped in moving car. It is really disgusting but it is surprising how the women returning from pub could assume that they were safe even at midnight. They identified one offender as one who danced in the pub.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/India-news/Gurgaon/Gurgaon-Two-women-raped-for-over-two-hours-in-moving-cab/Article1-1083404.aspx

Certainly they invited the trouble Perhaps they thought that they are living in Ram Rajya.

In Ram rajya women would not go to pubs. This could be in Ravana's Lanka. :unsure: :unsure:

Ravana's Lanka, an apt comparison.

I don't think even Ravana would have allowed this kind of behavior in his kingdom. He was a damon but not a rapist.

Yes, Ravana was not a rapist, but a kidnapper.

I had just remarked that women would not be allowed to go to pubs in Ram Rajya. They could do so in Ravana's Lanka. Rape is forced sex and this would be permitted neither in Rama rajya nor Ravan rajya. In Ram rajya, there could be no extramarital sex but this would be allowed in Ravan Rajya. Eat, drink and make merry- this was the norm in Rakshas Raj. Acharya
chatur Sen Shastri has well explained in 'Vayam Rakshama' that the Rakshas believed in merry making. .However, Ramayana is an epic and we cannot say anything authoritatively.

We cannot say anything about authoritatively about Ramayana, because it’s an epic. We cannot say anything about the existence of pubs in Rama Rajya or the restrictions imposed on women against visiting Pubs. Similarly, we cannot say anything authoritatively that in Ravana rajya women were allowed to visit Pubs and allowed extramarital relations, because nothing was mentioned about them and other social life in Ramayana, at least in the version of Ramayana available in this state.
In Bhagavata Purana, Mahabali was described as a benevolent Asura. There are no merry making sessions in Mahabali’s Rajya.
But we can say authoritatively that Ravana kidnapped Sita because, that’s the central theme of all innumerable Ramayanas available in this country.

If we bring Ramayana in this discussion as solution then we should begin from the beginning- Surpankha went out to have fun and the whole episode took place. Ravana wanted to die for Moksha with blessings of Rama therefore he kidnapped Sita. If he wanted to seduce her, he could have done it easily but it was not his aim.
Here the emphasis should be on Suparnkha and not on Ravana because in this case if merrymaking is the theme it was Suparnkha who started the party.

Merry making is not the theme. We were discussing about the living conditions in Rama rajya and the Ravana rajya in which merrymaking is just one of the points.

Actually the theme was rape of two women after they were returning from Pub. There was remark that those women thought that this is Ram Rajya and so they would not be raped. Then the issue emerged that no woman would go to pub in Ram Rajya. Then this turned to Ravana Raj where such pleasure could be derived. Actually Ram Rajya is not the main issue. The issue is whether women can take the liberty of being in pub till mid night and thereafter get in some car and expect they would not be raped. In fact, women should consider the ground reality and not invite rape as they did. But they have the liberty to invite rape for which they should thank themselves.

@Gulshanji

I can understand what prompted you to float this thread. The point which is compelling me to reply to your question involves both the legality as well as pragmatism behind a woman's decision to return late from a pub and risking herself to all kinds of undesirable consequences. If one goes through the provisions of our Constitution what is wrong if a woman does so on the test of equality ? We may question her wisdom of behaving in that particular fashion taking into account Indian realities but if anyone has failed it is that agency which is entrusted with the duty of enforcing each and every intention and will of the Indian Constitution. I fail to see any inappropriateness in her conduct if the same is enjoyed by any male!!!!

Sir,

I do not question right of the woman to go to pub at mid night but one must be security conscious. If I go to a notorious lonely place at odd hours with lot of money, is this not invitation to robbery. There is no use of complaining about police inefficiency if I am myself so careless and so daring.

But are we not taking the decision in regard to safety for them ourselves? Statistically speaking how many such rape cases are there? More women have been victims of rapes in recent times who never have had in their wildest imagination and intention of becoming willing victims. Women with deviant desires and perverse intentions are better clubbed as exceptional cases.

A pub is a public place open to all and if it is open until a certain time, it is but natural for people belonging to both the sexes to visit the place...so where is the uestion of being adventurous here when it is legally normal since the government allows a pub to be open until a certain time. There are a number of women visiting pubs these days and may come back late at night but they all dont get raped.
The problem here was the women asking and accepting a lift from some strangers which was very stupid on their part, but going to pub is a personal choice that cannot be questioned...

Two women returning from a pub in Gurgaon at midnight were raped in moving car. It is really disgusting but it is surprising how the women returning from pub could assume that they were safe even at midnight. They identified one offender as one who danced in the pub.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/India-news/Gurgaon/Gurgaon-Two-women-raped-for-over-two-hours-in-moving-cab/Article1-1083404.aspx

Certainly they invited the trouble Perhaps they thought that they are living in Ram Rajya.

In Ram rajya women would not go to pubs. This could be in Ravana's Lanka. :unsure: :unsure:

Ravana's Lanka, an apt comparison.

I don't think even Ravana would have allowed this kind of behavior in his kingdom. He was a damon but not a rapist.

Yes, Ravana was not a rapist, but a kidnapper.

I had just remarked that women would not be allowed to go to pubs in Ram Rajya. They could do so in Ravana's Lanka. Rape is forced sex and this would be permitted neither in Rama rajya nor Ravan rajya. In Ram rajya, there could be no extramarital sex but this would be allowed in Ravan Rajya. Eat, drink and make merry- this was the norm in Rakshas Raj. Acharya
chatur Sen Shastri has well explained in 'Vayam Rakshama' that the Rakshas believed in merry making. .However, Ramayana is an epic and we cannot say anything authoritatively.

We cannot say anything about authoritatively about Ramayana, because it’s an epic. We cannot say anything about the existence of pubs in Rama Rajya or the restrictions imposed on women against visiting Pubs. Similarly, we cannot say anything authoritatively that in Ravana rajya women were allowed to visit Pubs and allowed extramarital relations, because nothing was mentioned about them and other social life in Ramayana, at least in the version of Ramayana available in this state.
In Bhagavata Purana, Mahabali was described as a benevolent Asura. There are no merry making sessions in Mahabali’s Rajya.
But we can say authoritatively that Ravana kidnapped Sita because, that’s the central theme of all innumerable Ramayanas available in this country.

If we bring Ramayana in this discussion as solution then we should begin from the beginning- Surpankha went out to have fun and the whole episode took place. Ravana wanted to die for Moksha with blessings of Rama therefore he kidnapped Sita. If he wanted to seduce her, he could have done it easily but it was not his aim.
Here the emphasis should be on Suparnkha and not on Ravana because in this case if merrymaking is the theme it was Suparnkha who started the party.

Merry making is not the theme. We were discussing about the living conditions in Rama rajya and the Ravana rajya in which merrymaking is just one of the points.

Actually the theme was rape of two women after they were returning from Pub. There was remark that those women thought that this is Ram Rajya and so they would not be raped. Then the issue emerged that no woman would go to pub in Ram Rajya. Then this turned to Ravana Raj where such pleasure could be derived. Actually Ram Rajya is not the main issue. The issue is whether women can take the liberty of being in pub till mid night and thereafter get in some car and expect they would not be raped. In fact, women should consider the ground reality and not invite rape as they did. But they have the liberty to invite rape for which they should thank themselves.

@Gulshanji

I can understand what prompted you to float this thread. The point which is compelling me to reply to your question involves both the legality as well as pragmatism behind a woman's decision to return late from a pub and risking herself to all kinds of undesirable consequences. If one goes through the provisions of our Constitution what is wrong if a woman does so on the test of equality ? We may question her wisdom of behaving in that particular fashion taking into account Indian realities but if anyone has failed it is that agency which is entrusted with the duty of enforcing each and every intention and will of the Indian Constitution. I fail to see any inappropriateness in her conduct if the same is enjoyed by any male!!!!

Sir,

I do not question right of the woman to go to pub at mid night but one must be security conscious. If I go to a notorious lonely place at odd hours with lot of money, is this not invitation to robbery. There is no use of complaining about police inefficiency if I am myself so careless and so daring.

But are we not taking the decision in regard to safety for them ourselves? Statistically speaking how many such rape cases are there? More women have been victims of rapes in recent times who never have had in their wildest imagination and intention of becoming willing victims. Women with deviant desires and perverse intentions are better clubbed as exceptional cases.

A pub is a public place open to all and if it is open until a certain time, it is but natural for people belonging to both the sexes to visit the place...so where is the uestion of being adventurous here when it is legally normal since the government allows a pub to be open until a certain time. There are a number of women visiting pubs these days and may come back late at night but they all dont get raped.
The problem here was the women asking and accepting a lift from some strangers which was very stupid on their part, but going to pub is a personal choice that cannot be questioned...

I agree. Precaution is necessary. Getting lift from strangers is dangerous even if you are not returning from pub.

I think it is necessary to address the security in a broader and objective manner. It is an uncivilized society if the security consciousness has to be displayed by the citizens themselves irrespective of respective gender. Rather the boot is on the other leg! It is the security agencies which have been entrusted with job of providing it. The people in general must have access to all areas unless those are legally declared as 'Off Limits' by the concerned authorities. If any area is perceived as 'unsafe','dangerous' or 'notorious', the blame should laid at the doors of the administrators not anyone else. If a woman happens to enter an area which is called 'notorious' after enjoying herself at midnight, some eyebrows might be raised - not mine!!! But what about a woman living in the same area who is compelled to come to attend to an emergency!!!

I think it is necessary to address the security in a broader and objective manner. It is an uncivilized society if the security consciousness has to be displayed by the citizens themselves irrespective of respective gender. Rather the boot is on the other leg! It is the security agencies which have been entrusted with job of providing it. The people in general must have access to all areas unless those are legally declared as 'Off Limits' by the concerned authorities. If any area is perceived as 'unsafe','dangerous' or 'notorious', the blame should laid at the doors of the administrators not anyone else. If a woman happens to enter an area which is called 'notorious' after enjoying herself at midnight, some eyebrows might be raised - not mine!!! But what about a woman living in the same area who is compelled to come to attend to an emergency!!!

Thats my point too...In Bangalore many pubs have security guards outside who help out ladies to get a cab or an auto and noe down the number...not that it will deter a determined rapist or a criminal ! I feel that the least the authorities could do is to have some security outside such places so that a strict vigil is kept...

The government, police, others should definitely provide enough security. But the need for avoiding negligence cannot not be overlooked. It is ultimately the likely victim who suffers. So, every one needs be security conscious. Like charity, security begins at home. This is not only about likely rape or physical injury. This is about all aspects of life. It is no use being negligent, getting pickpocket and then blaming police, administration, society and others for the mishap.

The government, police, others should definitely provide enough security. But the need for avoiding negligence cannot not be overlooked. It is ultimately the likely victim who suffers. So, every one needs be security conscious. Like charity, security begins at home. This is not only about likely rape or physical injury. This is about all aspects of life. It is no use being negligent, getting pickpocket and then blaming police, administration, society and others for the mishap.

We all protect ourselves some way or other, like we use a lock before going out to secure our homes. If we keep it unlocked most probably it will be cleaned when we come back. You see prevention is better than cure so why look for a doctor when you fall ill, why not take precautionary measure before you really need it. We are living in a society which harms innocents for too long and women are not exceptions but part of those who are suffering in many ways. Even men are made to suffer by bad elements in different ways.

The government, police, others should definitely provide enough security. But the need for avoiding negligence cannot not be overlooked. It is ultimately the likely victim who suffers. So, every one needs be security conscious. Like charity, security begins at home. This is not only about likely rape or physical injury. This is about all aspects of life. It is no use being negligent, getting pickpocket and then blaming police, administration, society and others for the mishap.

We all protect ourselves some way or other, like we use a lock before going out to secure our homes. If we keep it unlocked most probably it will be cleaned when we come back. You see prevention is better than cure so why look for a doctor when you fall ill, why not take precautionary measure before you really need it. We are living in a society which harms innocents for too long and women are not exceptions but part of those who are suffering in many ways. Even men are made to suffer by bad elements in different ways.

One needs not only be cautious enough and avoid negligence but also develop self confidence and strategy to face adverse circumstances. Moreover even after one is victimized, he (or she) should be strong enough to face the situation after the event and not be unduly perturbed.

I am afraid that we are adrift of the main topic which is the social evil of
rape currently dominating the minds of all right-thinking people. We
are surely not here extolling the virtue of exercising caution and care
in our normal lives. Sadly when it comes to taking a conscientious

position on rights and powers of women we tend to be predominantly

influenced by patriarchally atavistic urges born out of a

male-dominated society leading to adopting a patronizing attitude or

preaching useless sermons. Rabindra Nath Tagore once lamented

about our refusal to let women take hold of their own destiny. Swami Vivekananda once angrily asked this question: Who the hell we are to
decide for women about what is good and what is bad for them??

If we can not ensure gender equality as enshrined in the Constitution,
it would be better to ask them to go behind Purdah once again where
they would be feeling more secure!!!! What has happened in West
Bengal in a village called Kamdhuni is a grim pointer to a terrible truth
that women in this country however cautious and careful in their daily
lives could be, can never ensure their own security. To repeat the
blood-curdling and spine-chilling story of the poor girl of the mason
who dreamed of unshackling the family from the grinding poverty
gripping the family by educating herself well and becoming a teacher. What was
her fault? Was she careless? Was she indiscreet? What has been the
role of the agency entrusted with the job of delivering justice? After
days of wait the CID has produced a charge-sheet which is horribly
deficient and has been flayed by the trial judge to be finally taken up
by the High Court for regular monitoring!!!

What should not be lost sight of is the fact that the Indian State has completely failed to sensitize the people on issues affecting women, the police, the judiciary have to bring themselves up to professional standards to give women the dignified place which they have a right to have!