That's very well,sir! You are very much entitled to your understanding as I am mine. I don't know of any such distinction which influenced incorporation of provisions of Directive Principles. In fact threre are a good number of them which did not and should not any controversy.

Now coming to examining critically the quality of the fundamental right of being treated equally before law which gets distorted in the absence of a common civil code. Interestingly the same political parties which are bitterly opposed to it were ardent supporters and present supporters were vehment opponents! When the first Nehru government with Ambedkar as his government's Law Minister led initiatives to reform personal laws they met opposition from hawks of both communities and if they had their ways in passing laws to give Hindu women the right to choose or devorce marriage partners, abolishing bigamy , polygamy among them that was mainly because of existence of influential sections of liberal and progressive Hindus. The Jana Sangh and RSS launched a virulent and vociferous attack on Ambedkar and their leaders claimed that as one born in a low caste hindu home Ambedkar had no business to override the HINDU SHASTRAS! Just think of it! In fact they called these reformative laws as an 'Atom bomb' on Hindu society.  Those among us whose arguments have Taliban strains and elements in them as they misinterpret constitutional provisions, support suppression and denial of fundamental rights to a gender of a particular community, miss these obvious finer points. 

T

Your concern for women of a particular community are well taken, but there should be a corresponding demand from a sizeable numbers within the community. It is only a matter of time before it happens. Pl wait for such time which hopefully is not very far away. Significant section of Hindus were prepared for reforms when laws for reform in Hindu community were passed in early 1950's and it should not be seen as one sided.Till such time constitutional guarantees are needed.

@Vijay I can't understand why you have given such a narrow spin on my views expressed so far as show of concern for women of a particular community when my posts had larger perspective and context of gender bias, human rights violation etc. How do we arrogate to ourselves the time of removing this prounced bias? How do you know that a majority of Muslim women don't want changes? How do you know that changes effected in Hindu personal laws are the results of such a demand from the majority? Society never prepares itself unless prodded and goaded by a select class of visionaries, revolutionaries and leaders of guts, iron will and honesty. Hope I am very clear as to the tone and tenor of the main line of my argument.

chinmoymukherjee wrote:

@Vijay I can't understand why you have given such a narrow spin on my views expressed so far as show of concern for women of a particular community when my posts had larger perspective and context of gender bias, human rights violation etc. How do we arrogate to ourselves the time of removing this prounced bias? How do you know that a majority of Muslim women don't want changes? How do you know that changes effected in Hindu personal laws are the results of such a demand from the majority? Society never prepares itself unless prodded and goaded by a select class of visionaries, revolutionaries and leaders of guts, iron will and honesty. Hope I am very clear as to the tone and tenor of the main line of my argument.

 

I agree that debate and discussion on reforms in the whole nation irrespective of community must go on. So there is nothing wrong in taking up issue of emanicipation of women and other weaker sectrions in any community- majority or minority. But the fact remains that demand for reform must come mainly from within a community.  Also the personal law based on community traditions cannot be tampered with so as to force the majority traditions on them. The current campaign for uniform personal law is an attempt to force majority traditions on minorities. This is despite the fact that even majority commuity does not have uniform law for itself. 

chinmoymukherjee wrote:

@Vijay I can't understand why you have given such a narrow spin on my views expressed so far as show of concern for women of a particular community when my posts had larger perspective and context of gender bias, human rights violation etc. How do we arrogate to ourselves the time of removing this prounced bias? How do you know that a majority of Muslim women don't want changes? How do you know that changes effected in Hindu personal laws are the results of such a demand from the majority? Society never prepares itself unless prodded and goaded by a select class of visionaries, revolutionaries and leaders of guts, iron will and honesty. Hope I am very clear as to the tone and tenor of the main line of my argument.

 

I have not given any narrow spin to your valued opinions. Before I could reply @ Ajmani has beautifully done so in his post. If visionaries were asking for stated changes in any community I would support but it is being sought by fringe elements only to score a point and show them their place in a hierarchial structure they want to create which is against the spirit of the constitution. Social changes take a long time and can succeed only if vast members of the target group are prepared to accept it. Indian society is still evolving in the modern sense where human beings will be treated as humans and not on basis of religion,cast,region and language. We are still far from such inclusive goal. But it is happening. Visionary leaders can hasten this process by positive policies. Today also votes are sought on polarization of society. we have to wait till change becomes inevitable.

Reading all the arguments here, I must say I am quite astonished at some of the esteemed members' stand that the a certain minority community is justifyingly a minority etc. etc. I am not very much aware of the statistics that have been given but I much prefer to refer to the realtime issues that I have actually seen among this community. Accept it or not, hard and glaring fact is that, these people simply DO NOT adhere to the rules and regulations that are followed by others in society. They flout the population concerns and give rise to children one after another, each couple having at least 5-6 children even today, in big cities, not just rural villages. They cannot provide for adequate medical care of the women and children, let alone provide proper nutrition but still do not follow family planning, simply because their religion does not allow them to use family planning safeguards. Once they were truly minority, now they are no longer a minority\, so why keep calling them and grant them special benefits when it is glaringly clear that they do not want to follow general society norms?

I also request other members to please do not post more statistics advising me to interpret them correctly. I am an alert and awake citizen and am very much aware of what is happening in the country!!

Kalyani Nandurkar wrote:

Reading all the arguments here, I must say I am quite astonished at some of the esteemed members' stand that the a certain minority community is justifyingly a minority etc. etc. I am not very much aware of the statistics that have been given but I much prefer to refer to the realtime issues that I have actually seen among this community. Accept it or not, hard and glaring fact is that, these people simply DO NOT adhere to the rules and regulations that are followed by others in society. They flout the population concerns and give rise to children one after another, each couple having at least 5-6 children even today, in big cities, not just rural villages. They cannot provide for adequate medical care of the women and children, let alone provide proper nutrition but still do not follow family planning, simply because their religion does not allow them to use family planning safeguards. Once they were truly minority, now they are no longer a minority\, so why keep calling them and grant them special benefits when it is glaringly clear that they do not want to follow general society norms?

I also request other members to please do not post more statistics advising me to interpret them correctly. I am an alert and awake citizen and am very much aware of what is happening in the country!!

Population explosion in certain communities is more because of lower economic and social status.  Many efforts have been taen to uplift the lower castes in Hindus. But nothing has been done to improve conditions of minority. In fact, the minorities have been discriminated against subtly and teated as mere vote bank. The moment a Hindu scheduled caste changes his religion (Budddhism, Jainism and Sikhism all trated as Hindu), the sceduled caste benefits are snatched.

The only way to check polulartion is to improve the economic and social status/ conditions of the concerned backward religious communities. It is in this context that ormer P.M. Manmohan singh had commented that minorities have first claim on national assets but the communal forces misinterpreted him. . 

A debate is purposeful and fruitful when participants have open minds and open to conviction - not a sterile one. In all my posts I have tried to be objective, drew on facts and applied my critical analysis to articulate my non-partisan stand on an issue whose wise handling could have galvanized the integrity of this nation and in the process tried to cut out woolly thinking, confusion and worse. If polygamy is a disgrace for human race and could be abolished in Iran Iraq,Egypt,Morocco, Jordan,Syria,Tunisia and even Pakistan what is the problem with us? Why are we so paranoid about 'Hindu Invasion' of Muslim personal. laws.Some bluff sophistry can never replace logical arguments. If Justice Baig, Justice M.C.Chagla, Aruna Asaf Ali, Shabana Azmi, Prof. Khuda Baksh and even the great poet Iqbal could be so vocal on the need for radical reforms in Muslim personal laws what is the problem with our dear Gulshanji. You simply can't create a class of second rate of citizen deprived of even their fundamental right of equality.There has been a question that if the demand has come from the majority . My request to them is go through the verdict of the apex court on Shah Bano case. All of us would be shamed to know that the exemplary courage displayed by a hapless,helpless Muslim woman was horrifically  overshadowed by the shameless act of the government headed by Rajiv who could have - with the support of 400 odd MPs- heralded a new chapter but he covered himself by overriding SC judgement to appease a few obscurantists. Since then SC has been regularly reminding governments of the day to discharge their obligation to protect the honour and dignity of Muslim women to no avail and given to the patriarchal society that we are and whose echo has resonated in the views of a few in this forum too, I am not at all optimistic. The entire has been politicised to a ridiculous plane.